Responding to Christianity's Critics

Allah, and Why I am not a Muslim

At this time, I would like to focus on the concept of God and how he is understood in Christianity and Islam but before that, I would like to present the reader with two scenarios, and once read, I would like for them to simply think about the contrast between the two. Now, if it follows that I have gone beyond what Islam teaches then I sincerely ask to be corrected. Please, I only wish to say what Islam says of itself so if it is that I have misrepresented it, don’t hesitate to inform me.

1. I will have slaves. I will make for my slaves a home to live in and it shall have everything needed for their sustenance. There shall be two sexes, of these, the female counterpart will I create with an inherent deficiency so as to warrant the majority of my wrath. As my slaves multiply it will follow that some will sin against me, and so I will punish the just with the unjust, the pure with the unpure. I will heap trouble upon trouble on them such that in pain will they be conceived and thereafter will pain be their companion. Though my slaves be numerous, the majority of them will I not love. Yet I will send them guidance but through my own actions (or lack thereof), most of these will be corrupted or lost and it will follow that whoever shall believe in them shall reserve for themselves a place in hell. From my throne will I observe my slaves, as they crumble under burdens far too great for them to bear. In the end, I will select a choice group even from those who believed and applied my final guidance to their lives and they whom I have favoured will enjoy paradise. There they will live as they were meant to: forever partaking of the pleasures of wine and sex.

2. I will have children. I will make for my children a home to live in and it shall have everything needed for their sustenance. There shall be two sexes, each to complement the other. Yet it will follow that my children will choose to disregard my love, and in so doing set the order of things askew. As a consequence of their choice, they along with the environment will be drastically changed. No longer will they be pure and no longer will their surroundings be for their benefit. Trouble upon trouble will be heaped on them such that in pain will they be conceived and thereafter will pain be their companion. Yet they are my children, and as such I can’t help but love them all. Therefore I will send them guidance which no man shall corrupt and I myself will bear their every burden and their pain. I will give my very life for theirs and by my blood will I save them from the abhorrent consequences of their actions. In the end, all those who would like to come home, I will welcome and personally dry every tear from their eyes. They will live as they were meant to: forever in my love.

The above is how the Islamic and Christian scriptures present their respective deities. Now before I continue with this subject I’ll be quite honest and say that something I don’t want to do is present a false representation of the Muslim God to my audience. I believe in the truth of Christianity and such I don’t feel that I need to speak falsely of other religions. Rather, it is my conviction that all one needs to do is present the Islamic deity as he is presented in Islamic theology to show why he is substandard to Yahweh. Therefore I have tried to the best of my abilities to only say what Islam says of Allah and if it is the case that I have been incorrect in my presentation of him, I would very much like to be shown my error.

Now to begin on an exposition of the above:

1. “I will have slaves”:

Few things reveal the heart of Allah better than this word, slave, ‘abd. While Yahweh sought to create beings whom he would welcome into his family (i.e. children), Allah sought more property—more slaves to rule over. To be a slave is to be dehumanized, to be seen only in terms of ones function, to be treated only as an object. The concept of servanthood vs childship is crucial because it provides a stark contrast between the Christian God and the Muslim God. Yahweh is a lover. He loves more potently and drastically than any other being in the universe. He is pleased when his creatures are enthralled in his love. He only gives the highest form of love and only expects the highest form of love in return, hence why he wishes to approach and be approached in a family relationship because it is only within such a dynamic that there exists the highest form of love, both for the lover and the beloved. Allah on the other hand pales in comparison to Yahweh in (every respect yet especially in) terms of love. While we know that the highest form of love is that of a child for their parent, Allah is content with something much less enchanting. He is merely interested in property, and to be approached in a manner in which it is fit for property to approach its owner. As such, he does not care that he could not receive the highest form of love within such a dynamic because he is not that interested in love at all. As with the slave master, he is concerned merely with obeisance yet not with the supreme obeisance which freely flows from a relationship built utterly and completely on love. If God is the greatest good, then it must follow that we ought to love this good in the most exemplary manner and that can only be found within the confines of a family relationship. To not do so in fact belittles God because we give to him something that is incredibly sub-standard to his person. It goes without saying that to give to God that which is sub-standard is the same as not giving to God at all. Yet the religion of Islam would have us believe that it’s perfectly alright to give something to God which is not the best.

2. “There shall be two sexes, of these, the female counterpart will I create with an inherent deficiency so as to warrant the majority of my wrath”:

273. Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, “Treat women well. Woman was created from a rib. The most crooked part of the rib is the top part. If you try to straighten it, you will break it. If you leave it, it remains crooked. So treat women well.”

In a variant in Muslim, “Woman was created from a rib, and you will never find any means to straighten her. If you wish to benefit from her, you can benefit from her in spite of her crookedness. If you try to straighten her, you will break her, and breaking her means divorcing her.” — Riyad as-Salihin

—————

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o ‘Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.” — Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

[emphasis mine]

From the above we understand that Allah created the woman from a crooked part hence her entire character is crooked. Muhammad even goes so far as to say that she can’t at all be straightened which is why the man must try to benefit from her in spite of her inherent crookedness. Later on we see that Muhammad looked into hell and saw that a majority of it’s inhabitants were women. It therefore follows that according to Islam, the woman is a defective product (when compared to the man) and because she was made defective she has a tendency to do things which are displeasing to Allah (and her husband) and so is more likely to merit hell. There is no need to mention how unfair this is given that Allah himself could have removed this deficiency in her character but chose to leave it in but then also punish her for what he gave her in the first place. Would it have been such a travesty to (as he has done for the man) not further handicap the woman especially when what is at stake is her eternal salvation (I use this term loosely given that quite aptly, there is no salvation in Islam)? In the Holy Bible however we read:

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet (‘ezer) for him. — Genesis 2:18 KJV

From how the word is used predominantly in the Bible, we see that the ‘ezer is the life-sustainer—the one thing to hold on to when everything falls apart. The only one who can see you through those life or death situations, the one to clasp on to tightly, the one you look to for help and support, the only one for you. According to the Bible, man and woman complement one another and there is no inferiority between them as God created them. In fact, it is expected that the man should cling to his wife in times of troubles and that the both should bear each others troubles and in so doing surmount them.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. — Galatians 3:28 ESV

While in Islam, the woman is declared to be deficient, in Christianity the creation of the woman was heralded as being “very good” and it is expected that the man should look to his wife for support and that the woman should look to her husband for the same. They are ontologically equal.

3. “As my slaves multiply it will follow that some will sin against me, and so I will punish the just with the unjust, the pure with the impure. I will heap trouble upon trouble on them such that in pain will they be conceived and thereafter will pain be their companion”:

Now the above seems rather unfair and I honestly hope that this is how the reader perceives it, but nevertheless, this is certainly how Allah operates. Now Islam does not believe in original sin. It does not believe that the order of creation was thrown off because of the sin of Adam & Eve. It does not believe that therefore all men are born in sin and are unrighteous. In fact, the Muslim claims that everyone is born pure and sinless and that none shall bear the sins of another nor be punished for their sins (Surah 17:15; 53:38-41). Yet is this what actually happens in practise? I will give just one example or rather, I will ask just one question. Where then comes deformity of the child (or, since all important questions should be asked in Shakespearean English, “Whence comes deformity”)? If we remember correctly, human beings are born pure and sinless, and according to reason and logic, it is only sinners that should be punished for their sins yet time and time again we have children—the very children whom supposedly are sinless and pure—that are born with severe disabilities and deformities. How is it that these sinless beings are born deformed etc.? Is it not the case that Allah only punishes the unjust? And if so, why then must these children, whom Muslims—in a bid to disparage the Bible’s teaching of original sin—claim are pure and wholly without sin, be subject to such a punishment? The reader should seriously think of the matter. Why is it that a supposedly pure creature should be born unable to walk, or with malformed hands and feet? If the claim is made that this has to do with the parents (perhaps consuming alcohol while pregnant with the child) the question still remains why then Allah would punish the pure and just individual for the sins of another (not to mention why he then claims that no one shall be punished for the sins of another in Surah 6:164)? This can in no way be justice. Why force the righteous to suffer against their will when it is not they that have sinned? Clearly Allah is nothing short of a cosmic sadist and while I understand how bold these words are, I ask that before I am judged as speaking out of line, it should first be explained to me how the above case is an exemplar of love and justice of the highest order? Unlike in Christianity where the righteous are not forcibly punished with the unrighteous, Islam is a religion in which a molester of persons regularly performs crude acts of abuse and then dares to be termed “The Merciful”. It is obvious that the Muslim God panders nothing but a pervasion of the justice, goodness and love that Yahweh is the very definition of.

Unlike the reprobate system of Islam in which Allah actively pervades all aspects of morality and goodness, Christianity presents the world with a wholly loving God who himself is the epitome of all the ideals and values we know in our heart of hearts to be right and good. Make no mistake about it, while it is quite easy to surpass Allah in love (really, people do this all the time; even Muslims themselves quite unsuspectingly accomplish this feat everyday) it is impossible to do likewise for any attribute of Yahweh. Now according to Christianity, the sin of Adam & Eve had a drastic effect on themselves and the whole order of creation. For one thing, it disrupted the relationship which they had had with God. No longer could they stand justified before him, instead they knew themselves to be sinful and hid (Genesis 3:8, 10). Their sin also gave birth to all ails, pains and even death (Genesis 3:16-19). Because they had walked away from the source of all goodness and life, all that remained was evil and death. This is why the world is so filled with all manner of evil, not because of God but because of man’s disobedience. To walk away from God is but to welcome all strains of evil with open arms. Yet if one knows the Christian story, they know that this is not how it will end. The paradise and the relationship which was lost, will in time be regained—for Yahweh is a lover.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 thatthe creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. — Romans 8:18-24 NIV

While it is not God’s trespass which caused all the suffering we see today, it is God’s promise that he will end them for all those who wish for it. That is, all them who wish to regain that love and relationship which was present in that garden all those eons ago, that very love and relationship which Yahweh has offered to humanity from all eternity (1 John 4:19).

4. “Though my slaves be numerous, the majority of them will I not love”:

The above statement is quite easily shown when one considers that never once in the whole Qur’an does Allah claim to love the unbeliever or the sinner. Furthermore, according to Islam, all those who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad nor in his message are unbelievers. This is even more accented by the fact of Allah declaring that all us non-Muslims are quite literally “the worst of creatures” because of our unbelief in Islam (Surah 98:6).

Contrary to this, the Bible teaches that God loves completely and without any conditions. In fact he loves us so much that he gave his very Son so that we might be saved from sin and the consequences of our sin (John 3:16). As it says:

This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. — 1 John 4:9-11 NIV

—————

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! — Romans 5:8-10 NIV

According to Islam, Allah only loves those who love him yet in Christianity we find that Yahweh loves us regardless of whether or not we reciprocate that love. Jesus said, “to give is better than to receive” (Acts 20:35) and, perhaps in a direct rejection of the God of Islam, he continues, “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them” (Luke 6:32). Apparently the God of Islam operates in just the same manner as one would expect of a sinner while Yahweh loves freely and without measure.

5. “Yet I will send them guidance but through my own actions (or lack thereof), most of these will be corrupted or lost and it will follow that whoever shall believe in them shall reserve for themselves a place in hell”:

Herein I am only saying what Muslims say of Allah themselves. According to Islam, Allah sent the Torah, and the Gospel as a guidance to mankind (Surah 5:46).

“Allah revealed the Torah and Injeel [Gospel] before this (Quran) as a guide to mankind.” — Surah 3:3-4

Now Muslims, upon realizing that the Gospel and the Torah completely contradict the Qur’an, have claimed that these texts have been corrupted in order to save face. What is interesting about this reasoning is that it contradicts the claims of the Qur’an itself (Surah 10:64). Anyway, assuming that the Qur’an is wrong on this account and the Muslim is right, then Islam presents us with a God who utterly failed twice to get his message out and then has the gull to claim to be all-powerful. Through his inability to protect his word, millions upon millions of individuals were raised to believe in a message he had failed to keep pure and yet Allah would still wish to punish Christians and Jews for his own weakness. In the Muslim point of view, Allah’s inability to keep his word from corruption lead to the creation of the greatest false religion of all time which even Islam itself has been unable to supersede in over 1, 400 years. As is evident, Islam presents us with a deity who blames mankind for his own mistakes and impotence yet would still demand worship.

Against this spectacularly deficient understanding of the dispensation of God, the Bible tells us that God’s word is unalterable. It will not be corrupted and it will abide forever (Isaiah 40:8). Furthermore, God promises us in the Bible that he will accomplish what he has set out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

This of course bars all failure and we are therefore able to trust in him and his word in a manner completely unlike that of the God of Islam. God’s word is the primary and the fullest means in which he has revealed himself and so for God’s word to have at one time failed—nevermind fail twice—is for God to have failed and proven himself to be untrustworthy. This is an important distinction between Christianity and Islam. Yahweh’s word has never failed while the recurring failures of Allah have given us every reason to distrust him. Once more I’m only saying what Muslims say of their religion in that it is they that claim that Allah’s word was textually corrupted and thus failed twice.

6. “From my throne will I observe my slaves, as they crumble under burdens far too great for them to bear”:

According to the Qur’an, man was created weak (Surah 4:28) and according to Muslim thought, Allah does not enter into his creation (which for one thing makes no logical sense and is once more in contradiction to the Qur’an but this is a subject for a later post). Now, there is a certain comfort which only comes from the presence of another person. While by it’s own claims, Islam leaves its adherers totally devoid of this type of comfort, Christianity claims that the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God is really present within and with the Christian (Exodus 33: 14Joel 2: 27).

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it… 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth…. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. — John 1:1-5, 14, 18 NIV

In the Bible we find that the eternal God is literally present and that he assures us that he is with us wherever we go. Not only does he watch over us from his throne but he is also at our very side and makes himself known to us. The Muslim who would claim that they felt Allah’s presence knows that this really can’t be true because in Islamic thought, Allah does not enter into his creation (this of course contradicts the Qur’an but let us at this time agree with the Muslim that the Qur’an is wrong on this point). The Christian who would claim the same experience knows quite well that the very God of the heavens is literally present with them. While in times of troubles, the Muslim has to make supplications to a truly distant, aloof, slave-master (once more I only say what Islam says of itself), the Christian needs only to come into the very real presence of their loving Father.

7. “In the end, I will select a choice group even from those who believed and applied my final guidance to their lives and they whom I have favoured will enjoy paradise”:

The Muslim is not guaranteed his salvation. According to Islam, no Muslim can say with confidence that they will “merit” heaven. As such the Muslim does good works not primarily out of love for Allah, but rather out of fear of his punishment—hell. To the Christian, this would all seem rather bizarre seeing as it is the Christian understanding that works which do not flow from love are useless (1 Corinthians 13:1-3). Islam is a faith of uncertainty, uncertainty about the love of God for its adherents and uncertainty about whether, in the end, the Muslim will be in heaven as opposed to in hell. On the contrary, the Holy Bible says the following to the Christian:

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him. — John 3:36 NET

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 And if children, then heirs (namely, heirs of God and also fellow heirs with Christ)—if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him. — Romans 8:14-17 NET

“Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.” — Isaiah 45:22 NIV

What the reader will note is how absolute the above statements are. Unlike the God of Islam, Yahweh does not say, “come to me and maybe I’ll save you”—no, he is explicit in declaring his salvation for all those who believe in him. Furthermore, it’s interesting, that hundreds of years before the message of Islam was first preached, Islam itself was reprimanded in the above prophetic passages. The bible expressly states that Christians have not received a spirit of slavery so as to live in fear. The Muslim’s spirit is one of slavery. They live in fear of their salvation everyday for none can say with all honesty and confidence that they are saved from hell. There is always a level of uncertainty, a level of doubt at the back of the minds of every Muslim. Behind every word of praise, behind every recitation of the Qur’an, all Muslims wonder whether they are loved by God and whether they will gain heaven. In calling the Christian towards Islam, the Muslim would like to call us to a religion of uncertainty, a religion of doubt, they would once more make us subject to the spirit of fear. In calling us and in fact all other peoples to the religion of Islam, the Muslim would like for us to once more be chained, bonded, and shackled to the evils of slavery and fright. Yet Christ expressly declares that he came to set us free from slavery (John 8:32-36). Therefore the Christian on the other hand need not fear anything anymore because nothing can separate them from the love of God (Romans 8:35-39). Quite sadly, the love of God is another thing that no Muslim can claim to. As Islam declares, the ones whom Allah loves will be in heaven, yet no individual Muslim can say for sure that they will be in heaven hence, no Muslim can say for sure that they are loved of Allah. It always amazes me how spectacularly deficient the message of Islam is when compared to God’s true message which is revealed in the Bible. Then again, it only follows that this should be so given that there is no way that any man-made religion could ever triumph over God’s very own revelation of himself and his purpose.

8. “There they will live as they were meant to: forever partaking of the pleasures of wine and sex”:

To the Muslim, the pleasures of heaven are primarily revealed in wine and sex. The Muslim looks forward to heaven so that he can indulge in sex with specially created women whom Allah has kept especially for them and whom the Muslim may partake of to his heart’s content. The Qur’an and Islamic literature are actually quite replete with descriptions concerning this matter:

Indeed, for the righteous is attainment -Gardens and grapevines And full-breasted [companions] of equal age And a full cup. — Surah 78:31-34 Sahih International

Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, “There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them.” — Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34

Every man who enters paradise shall be given 72 (seventy-two) houris; no matter at what age he had died, when he is admitted into paradise, he will become a thirty-year-old, and shall not age any further. A man in paradise shall be given virility equal to that of one hundred men. — TIRMZI, vol. 2, p. 138

There is much more which could be said on this subject alone but I’ll let the reader discover these for themselves. To conclude I will simply end with the Bible’s description of heaven and let it speak for itself.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. — Revelation 21:3-7 NIV

Telling indeed.

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13 responses

  1. “I believe in the truth of Christianity and such I don’t feel that I need to speak falsely of other religions. Rather, it is my conviction that all one needs to do is present the Islamic deity as he is presented in Islamic theology to show why he is substandard to Yahweh.”

    Very true.

    “…or, since all important questions should be asked in Shakespearean English…”

    Here here.

    November 19, 2010 at 12:24 PM

  2. “…or, since all important questions should be asked in Shakespearean English…”

    “Here here.”

    lol.

    November 19, 2010 at 4:12 PM

  3. Pingback: Love for God, Art of Beauty, Books of Fantasy

  4. Praise the Lord for the truth will set the captives free, praise the glory of the one true God of Gods Lord Yahweh!

    December 16, 2010 at 1:45 AM

  5. Pingback: RE: Allah, and Why I am not a Muslim (Part 1) « Islam: Doctrine of Peace

  6. Amin Riaz

    This is such a long article that to answer it fully would take too long. This work is of course figment of your own imagination.

    Christian theology and religion is so weak that you have to invent and lie about other to make your own self seem stronger and more worthier somehow.

    Just one point of deformity. Physical deformity is hardly punishing for sins – Muslims consider the short life on earth as nothing more then a test. Extreme poverty, innocent deaths by cruel people – if using your logic all are cruel to the innocent they happen though.

    Actually trying to explain away that the reason disable people are the way they are due to the original sin is not just cruel but immoral and totally wrong.

    Also you have trouble understanding the difference between Hadith and Quran. How Muslims view the two is very different to each other – to use both interchangeably is quite wrong.

    One would have thought that Wests fascination with studying Islam at all top universities would teach you all this but willfully misleading others … Christianity a poor excuse for a religion – invented mostly by St. Paul – who was probably misled by Satan.

    March 6, 2011 at 2:51 PM

    • Just one point of deformity. Physical deformity is hardly punishing for sins – Muslims consider the short life on earth as nothing more then a test. Extreme poverty, innocent deaths by cruel people – if using your logic all are cruel to the innocent they happen though.

      Hmm, I have one question for you Amin. Speaking solely on the matter of the deformity itself, is physical deformity a blessing or a curse? Furthermore, is it right for the innocent to suffer? Can you please justify how God could at all cause one to suffer when righteous individuals do not suffer (hence why you believe that heaven is a place of pleasure)? To call it a test still does not get the Muslim deity off the hook seeing as Muslims believe that it isn’t fair for individuals to be born sinners do to Adam’s sins yet here we have mere children being born with severe deformities because of the sins of their parents (e.g. alcohol) and/or no one’s fault at all.

      Actually trying to explain away that the reason disable people are the way they are due to the original sin is not just cruel but immoral and totally wrong.

      No, rather it is your ideology that is cruel, immoral and unjust. From what you have said I can already guarantee that you have misunderstood the concept of original sin. The Christian claim is that the world is not as it should be due to the sin of Adam and Eve which fundamentally changed their relationship with God and the entire created order. Nature and everything else is not as it should be and that is why there are floods, earthquakes and all manner of diseases. You however claim that this world is as good as God wanted it to be and those who suffer, suffer only because God wants to see how much punishment humanity can take.

      Also you have trouble understanding the difference between Hadith and Quran. How Muslims view the two is very different to each other – to use both interchangeably is quite wrong.

      So according to the above I do not understand the difference because I use the two inter-changeably? Amin, I suspect that you are the one in error here. Using sources inter-changeably is not a problem as long as one clearly distinguishes between the two, as I have. I use the hadiths and the Qur’an because they are the foundation of Islam and one cannot practise Islam with only one of these sources (which makes for a pretty interesting discussion seeing as since Muslims consider the Qur’an to be eternal, but not the hadiths then from the beginning of time until the advent of Muhammad, the Qur’an itself was inefficient for its purpose—i.e. to teach the religion of Islam).

      That said, I enjoyed your comments.

      March 6, 2011 at 6:10 PM

    • Asif

      Amin,
      I have been challenging Muslims to prove from Scripture that Paul’s doctrine is different than Jesus’ doctrine. No proof has come forth!
      Some of the wording is different because Jesus’ audience was the unsaved, while Paul’s audience was mostly to Christian churches.
      Sorry, enormous difference between the two in terms of spiritual understanding.
      Regarding Muslims, they have zero spiritual understanding.
      Gabriel was Satan himself, or one of his demons.
      Allah was totally made up by Satan/Gabriel.
      Allah of the Quran is obviously not the God of the Bible.
      Mohammed was deceived by Satan/Gabriel.
      Satan easily deceives man.

      April 24, 2011 at 11:38 AM

  7. Amin Riaz

    Being short can be curse – so is having ginger hair – so is being born black – when face racism or get picked on – etc. Being rich, being poor and etc – whole human life can seem like a curse. What of it? The fact is the false “love” you preach very quickly falls apart if a little pressure is applied.

    One example – Lynching of black people in USA for no crime at all – hands of good Christian men and women of fellow Christians? For what sin are they being punished for or isnt there suffering anyless

    There is difference between that and what you preach – that all this sufferance is due to the sin of Adam.

    Adam is an honored Prophet in Islam. As apposed to Christianity – A sinner.

    If you do your home work properly – Quran is viewed as unchangeable word of God. Exactly as it always was – no error.

    Hadith is viewed as history – that can have errors and requires absolute control by trained scholars.

    In this respect Hadiths are like the Bible. Words recorded by others about Jesus – vice versa.

    You lack proper understanding of these basic concepts.

    You however claim that this world is as good as God wanted it to be and those who suffer, suffer only because God wants to see how much punishment humanity can take.

    Now thats lying – you made it up – I never said it or you cannot make this conclusion from what I said.

    That is problem with Christians – when you have nothing else – LIE

    March 6, 2011 at 9:12 PM

  8. Welcome back Amin, it is always a pleasure.

    Being short can be curse – so is having ginger hair – so is being born black – when face racism or get picked on – etc. Being rich, being poor and etc – whole human life can seem like a curse. What of it? The fact is the false “love” you preach very quickly falls apart if a little pressure is applied.

    Amin, being short is not a a curse in itself (it certainly depends on how short “being short” refers to) and in the case where the lack of height is severely debilitating then it only functions as another physical deformity (which then only adds to my point). The same is said for being black—this is not evil in itself. To try to equate being black with being disfigured is tantamount to racism and one would hope that you would perhaps take better care in crafting your arguments in the future. It need not be said that your lynching example becomes not only ill-thought out but completely irrelevant.

    There is difference between that and what you preach – that all this sufferance is due to the sin of Adam.

    Adam is an honored Prophet in Islam. As apposed to Christianity – A sinner.

    Hmm, in the above try to make a point by saying that Adam is an honoured individual in Islam. Certainly what passes for the real biblical Adam might be greatly honoured in Islam but this doesn’t go anywhere in proving your point. Adam is an honoured individual in Christianity as well yet this does not have any bearing on the reality of original sin.

    If you do your home work properly – Quran is viewed as unchangeable word of God. Exactly as it always was – no error.

    Unchanged Qur’an: Yusuf Ali in his book, Translation and Commentary of the Holy Qur’an refers to a variant reading in Ubai ibn Ka`b’s codex of the Qur’an which reads: “… and he is a father to them”? With this addition, Qur’an 33:6 would read:
    The Prophet is closer
    To the believers than
    Their own selves,
    And he is a father to them
    And his wives are
    Their mothers…
    Why does Yusuf Ali cite this variant? Is it possible that he sees this variant as an improvement? Moreover, why does he refer to different Qur’an readings, however small, in Notes 2666 and 2948?4

    So no, the fact is that the Qur’an has had edits to it.

    No Error: Now that is a rather interesting claim. Could you please turn to a list of all the references of the trinity within the Qur’an. The fact is that they’re all wrong. I could even make a post on this matter if you would like, in fact it would be a pleasure.

    Hadith is viewed as history – that can have errors and requires absolute control by trained scholars.

    Isn’t it fascinating how Sahih hadiths and “agreed upon” hadiths can suddenly be inaccurate when circumstances call for them to be? You’ll note that it isn’t I who called these collection of hadiths Sahih or “agreed upon”, respectively, (or the fact that Bukhari is considered the most authentic of the 6 canonical collections of hadiths) but rather your own scholars. You are not a scholar and are therefore in no position to contest their decisions. Disgusted by what they deem to be in keeping with Islam? So am I.

    Now thats lying – you made it up – I never said it or you cannot make this conclusion from what I said.

    Hmm, I was under the impression that you as a Muslim believed that nature functioned as it should and the fact that earthquakes and as such happened isn’t some sort of deviance from God’s original goal? And are you not the one who said that deformities are a test from God? So is he not testing to see how much suffering humans can bear?

    March 7, 2011 at 12:40 AM

  9. Amin Riaz

    Test and – testing how much pain one can bear are two different thing. The deceptive conclusion is your – in our short exchange its surprising how many things you seem to not mention in the first instance or change. See all your

    If your deformity had any substance as an argument then Christians would miraculously recover. But it doesn’t happen – yet you cruelly subscribe this false belief to Adam. Not one wrong but two.

    There is difference between pointing out how Hadith and Quran are viewed and hen jumping to conclusion – as you are good at doing – towards whether a particular Hadith is correct or false. I merely pointed out your use of the two Islamic sources lacked understanding – proper understanding – and correct use. You would have know the difference if you was a scholar of any merit.

    Again you have no idea whether I am a scholar of something or not – again jumping to false and hasty conclusions. Your own lack of understanding and then falsifying claims has not got anything to do with Muslim Jurists. You have not even got a clue to what “Usul” are.

    Again – Quran had seven different ways to read – that were all agreed upon by Muslims. That is common – although one is more prevalent – that and “textual differences” are your own conclusions.

    Muslims take Written book as he symbolic Quran – the actual to be the transmitted audio by Arch-angel Gabriel. The different ways Arabs read the same text – or different pronunciations of the same text – does not equate to differences. Again that is your own wrong conclusion and lack of understanding.

    March 7, 2011 at 10:17 AM

    • Thank you for commenting once again, Amin. It would seem that this is getting to be quite the heated discussion.

      Test and – testing how much pain one can bear are two different thing. The deceptive conclusion is your – in our short exchange its surprising how many things you seem to not mention in the first instance or change. See all your

      Given that you seemingly did not finish your paragraph, I will give you the benefit of a doubt and assume that what would have followed would have been a devastating and concise refutation of my post but sadly, I can only address what I have been provided. So once more, you say that life is a test and the suffering and ails thereof (natural disasters, deformities, diseases etc.) are all just tests from God. What exactly is he testing? Is it to see how much we love him? And if this is in fact the case how then do you disagree with the statement, “is he not testing to see how much suffering humans can bear”? If these tests are to assess how much we love him and he therefore causes us to suffer, can you seriously say that it is incorrect to say that he’s testing how much pain humans can endure (and by endure we mean to say before they give up on him)?

      If your deformity had any substance as an argument then Christians would miraculously recover. But it doesn’t happen – yet you cruelly subscribe this false belief to Adam. Not one wrong but two.

      No, the above is completely wrong. Why do you say that Christians would miraculously recover?

      There is difference between pointing out how Hadith and Quran are viewed and hen jumping to conclusion – as you are good at doing – towards whether a particular Hadith is correct or false. I merely pointed out your use of the two Islamic sources lacked understanding – proper understanding – and correct use. You would have know the difference if you was a scholar of any merit.

      Again you have no idea whether I am a scholar of something or not – again jumping to false and hasty conclusions. Your own lack of understanding and then falsifying claims has not got anything to do with Muslim Jurists. You have not even got a clue to what “Usul” are.

      Alright, if I have been deceiving in my argumentation then please begin to attack my argument and point out these errors for us instead of merely making these claims. I’ll be waiting.

      Again – Quran had seven different ways to read – that were all agreed upon by Muslims. That is common – although one is more prevalent – that and “textual differences” are your own conclusions.

      Muslims take Written book as he symbolic Quran – the actual to be the transmitted audio by Arch-angel Gabriel. The different ways Arabs read the same text – or different pronunciations of the same text – does not equate to differences. Again that is your own wrong conclusion and lack of understanding.

      I’m sorry to say that it’s actually you who is jumping to conclusions. I presented you with differences in the written text and somehow you claim that this is a pronunciation issue. In one version of the Qur’an the phrase “And he is a father to them” is not at all present and in another version, it is. How then does this merely become a pronunciation issue when the matter concerns written differences in the text itself? This is not just different ways of pronouncing the same words on the same page but rather of having different words on the page itself. The problem you seem to have is that you refuse to admit that the addition of a completely new sentence constitutes an altered text which is rather surprising.

      As always, I await your response Amin but could you please respond to the following in your next comment: “Does Allah love you Amin, and are you certain that you will be in heaven?”

      March 7, 2011 at 3:53 PM

  10. Pingback: Allah, and Why I am not a Muslim: Another Look « God Omnipotent

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